Author Topic: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....  (Read 15628 times)

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AD

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2012, 03:43:35 PM »
If you want to come by this weekend and look at mine your welcome. 
The only dumb question is the one that did not get asked!!

bryanthegoon

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 05:25:03 PM »
If you want to come by this weekend and look at mine your welcome.

I just might have to take you up on that, I will send an email.

BTPost

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 10:02:02 PM »
I like this idea but have some questions 

If I am understanding correctly you are saying that with a tuner I could essentially tune anything HF (other than 160m) off of this without any kind of traps, correct?

What would I use for a balun, just a simple 1:1 because I am feeding a dipole with 50 ohm coax.... as an example something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-BALUN-For-Ham-Radio-Simple-Dipole-Antenna-2-KW-PEP-Dependable-/170868965974?pt=US_Radio_Comm_Antennas&hash=item27c8958256#ht_3909wt_1396
or possibly something like this
http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=18314

And would the balun be ok "hanging in the wind" so to speak?

What kind of wire would you typically use for the dipole?

Yes, that is correct.... I use a straight Wire Dipole cut for 3933 Khz with my HF Radios, on everything from 1.600 Mhz on up to 30 Mhz. One of my Radios is a Part 80/87 Type Accepted and I use it for Marine and Aircraft Comms on the same Dipole Antenna and Tuner (Dentron MT3000a) as the TS-690 for the Ham Bands.

I use a HyGain Black Balun at a center of the Dipole. I can't remember if it is 1:1 or 4:1 as I put it up 20 years ago and haven't needed to do anything to it since. It is Pictured on my website... <http://www.99850.net/Images/House.JPG> listed as HF Ham....

Yep, it is just fine "Hang'en in the wind".... and  I used just some #10 Stranded Copper THHN Electrical Wire. It has stretched a few inches in 20 years,
but still works just fine.  You will notice in the Picture, that the coax coming down from the Balun is RG58, and you can't really tell, but that coax is wrapped around the balun, Vertically, as a strain relief, so it is not just hanging on the Pl-259. The RG-58 transitions to a run of Beldon 9913 at the eave of the Cabin, and that runs into the Radio-room to the Radio Selector Switch. I also have a 5btv that uses the Steel Roof as a Groundplane... but rarely use it for TX... It mostly is connected to the Backup Radio, (TS-430) and used to monitor 40Meters.
Bruce in alaska AL7AQ

KC9TNH

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2012, 12:46:57 PM »
I think BTPost has your back with his idea. I like the whole thing. I'd probably use RG-8X vice RG-58 just for a slight amount less loss (till meeting the RG-8 connection) but mostly 'cause that's what I've got around that's light-weight. You're SSB on 75m is gonna play well locally/regionally (depending on state size) at that height too. The reason I like the wire solution he's mentioned is the other thing I've found out about wire antennas. I don't have any such HOA things but can attest that, once up, they tend to be forgotten about unless you errantly call someone's attention to it; prey animals don't look up as often as they should.  (Curb your pride; they're probably afraid you'll toss up a Rohn 45 with a hex beam.) Key is having a good tuner that will address the matching to your rig from the various amounts of Z presented by the antenna. think you should be OK with a good 1:1 current balun. If you want a quality one in a small enclosure, call Bob at Balun Designs for something like this one:

http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/the-58/QRP-1-cln-1-baluns-balun/Detail

with whatever you want on the outside (hex nuts, wing nuts). I left one of these supposed QRP baluns (only rated for 3-400 watts) up through a Wisconsin season and a half with no issues; now resides in the go-bag 'cause I ordered a bigger one to take the amp. He builds quality stuff and it's a pretty small enclosure & he'll work with you, very affable.

Good luck.  :)


bryanthegoon

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2012, 11:44:22 PM »
I saw AD's setup this weekend, I think I am going to do something similar to what he has with the entry box and grounding situation.

As for the antenna itself I am going to attempt what BTPost has suggested.  Before buying supplies I borrowed a 200' tape measure just to confirm that I have 89 feet from point a to point b (not that I doubt your calculations, more in case any of my measurements were off, would hate to get wire cut and have it not fit). 

Of course now the problem is my extension ladder is not tall enough to get to the peak, and I am not sure that I  trust myself on the tile roof.  Still trying to figure out what to do about that problem but I will solve it one way or another (anyone in Phoenix have a scissor lift they want to loan out ;) )

I also like the balun that KC9TNH suggested, they are a little pricey compared to the "generics", but from looking at the site they are obviously excellent quality, and are not that much more to be worth worrying about the cost difference.  I think I will do what you did and get the "QRP" balun initially and if I decide to upgrade later that can get tossed in a go bag, for the way I am mounting the reduced weight will be helpful.

Thanks to everyone for all the help so far, this forum has been a great resource.  I will keep everyone up to date as I get something up and working.

spacecase0

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 03:11:04 PM »
here is my friend showing the LDG S9 antenna, not that it looks like the solution here anyway, but it may be fun anyway,
Getting around HOA antenna restrictions
he said he was sorry for the low production value...

KC9TNH

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2012, 05:05:38 PM »
here is my friend showing the LDG S9 antenna, not that it looks like the solution here anyway, but it may be fun anyway,
Getting around HOA antenna restrictions
he said he was sorry for the low production value...
I like the creativity alot; clothesline folded-dipole thought applied to a vertical. Very nice, congrats to your friend. I wonder how it plays, being omni-directional, and one side basically against a building...
Cool.

spacecase0

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 12:01:01 PM »
he said it works very well and he does not notice that the building is there.

BTPost

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 02:03:32 PM »
When teaching about Antenna Systems, I like to use the RF Glasses analogy.... If you put on Your RF Spectacles, that only see stuff, in the RF Domain, and look at any Antenna System, you get a sense, of what is important, and what is NOT. Especially at HF. You look at the Ground and you see a flat layer with a varying Density. You see any Ground Radials  as enhancing the Ground Density out a foot on each side. You see the Driven Radiator as a Red Hot Vertical Radiator. You do NOT see any buildings around, unless they have metal siding, but you do see the metal water pipes, and electrical lines, all standing their in the Air, but since they are NOT in the Near Field, or resonant, they appear very fuzzy. You see the coax, but it is just a Black line. You see the balun as a White Hot thing. That is about ALL you see, and that tells you what is important to pay attention to, in that antenna system..... Just Say'en... YMMV....
Bruce in alaska AL7AQ

KC9TNH

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 04:35:39 PM »
When teaching about Antenna Systems, I like to use the RF Glasses analogy.... If you put on Your RF Spectacles, that only see stuff, in the RF Domain, and look at any Antenna System, you get a sense, of what is important, and what is NOT. Especially at HF. You look at the Ground and you see a flat layer with a varying Density. You see any Ground Radials  as enhancing the Ground Density out a foot on each side. You see the Driven Radiator as a Red Hot Vertical Radiator. You do NOT see any buildings around, unless they have metal siding, but you do see the metal water pipes, and electrical lines, all standing their in the Air, but since they are NOT in the Near Field, or resonant, they appear very fuzzy. You see the coax, but it is just a Black line. You see the balun as a White Hot thing. That is about ALL you see, and that tells you what is important to pay attention to, in that antenna system..... Just Say'en... YMMV....
Interesting parable.

BTPost

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2012, 06:52:21 PM »
If you like that... Take your RF Spectacles,and look at a Plastic SailBoat, (Non-conductive Hull) sitting in Salt Water, with an LF/MF/HF Radio system installed. What is the MOST important part of the Antennas System, for this installation? Many people think it is the Antenna, and Antenna Tuner. They are dead WRONG. the most important part of the Antenna System is the RF Ground that supports the Antenna System.
so let us look at this with our RF eyes. What do we see?  We see the Engine, the Electrical Wiring, the gearbox, the shaft, the propeller, any Metal Fuel Tanks, that may be bonded to the Engine electrically, and maybe a metal Fresh Water Tank. Oh yea, we also see a very nice surface layer of Slat Water. The perfect Ground Plane. Now look at just how much RF Coupling, there is between all that you see, and that Perfect Ground Plane? Well not much, just the propeller, and shaft are in direct contact. The rest are Capacitively coupled to the Ground Plane. so how do you INCREASE the capacitive coupling for a Better RF Ground? How do you make a Bigger Capacitor? You either ADD Surface Area, or bring the two plates, closer together. So here is the Test Question, for this exercise....  What would you do to make the Antenna system on this vessel as good as possible, across the LF/MF/HF Spectrum?

If you get the answer right, you are smarter than 90% of the Marine Electronics Techs now working in the field..... Just Say'en....
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:54:12 PM by BTPost »
Bruce in alaska AL7AQ

AD

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2012, 07:37:27 PM »
Tie the redio grounds to an extrenal anode below the waterline?
The only dumb question is the one that did not get asked!!

gaglock

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2012, 08:16:14 PM »
run a copper ground wire around the boat below the waterline and tie the radio ground into it?

bryanthegoon

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2012, 10:40:55 PM »
Shooting in the dark a little here, but I might... tie all of the conductive components together using either wide copper strap or if flexibility is necessary copper braid.  I would also consider running a wide copper strap, around the inside wall of the hull below water level and tie this into the other (connected) metal components, possibly in more than one place depending on locations.  Of course this would be tied into the radio ground ( and the antenna as well if appropriate depending on antenna design)

Given that we are talking sea water I would be concerned about corrosion inhibiting the conductivity of any metal I directly expose to the water over any period of time. 

bryanthegoon

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Re: HF Antenna Suggestions...HOA....
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 10:54:59 PM »
On another note (going back to the original thread) I am still working on implementing BTPost's dipole suggestion. 

I purchased one of the baluns from balundesigns suggested by KC9TNH just looking at it it is very good quality, of course I haven't been able to use it yet.

After looking at the entrance panels from KF7P suggested by AD (and seeing his in person, thanks again) I decided I really liked the idea but am on a bit of a budget... so I went down to the habitat for humanity re-store and picked up a used external waterproof breaker box for $5 and got a sheet of copper off of amazon for $8.  I am modifying the box to essentially mimic the kf7p ones, I will post pictures as I get this together.

At the moment I am scouring craigslist to buy a 32ft+ (ideally 40 ft) extension ladder  found that I can rent one for for $45 for a day or buy one (with alittle searching) for like $100 or so, so just going to buy one.  Also still need to get antenna wire and coax, and some other misc stuff (thou that will likely have to wait till next paycheck).  This is taking far longer than I had hoped, but that is mostly because of some home stuff that has come up....

so now for some questions... can anyone think of any problems with painting one of the insulators?  is typical house paint these days conductive?  Just trying to do anything I can to make things blend in.

Second question which is unrelated to this installation ..... If I was to hang a balun for a dipole (or some kind of vertical, or ...) from a tower should it be offset from the tower itself?  if so how much?  This is in relation to the tower at my in-laws cabin... I am not ready to put up something permanent there yet, but we will have to pull the tower down soon to repair something on the TV antenna anyway so I would like to find and mount a cheap pulley up near the top to give me some options for the future without having to pull the tower down again, but just not sure if I need it to sit off on an arm or if I can just mount it directly to the tower.